GRRRR!!! Writer's strike.

[Lamron]

I'm tired of this stupid writer's strike. We're loosing some of the best shows. 24 won't be on at all this season, Bionic Woman is shut down, House is almost out of episodes, and the new Sarah Connor Chronicles is going to be shut down before it even gets a chance to build a solid fan base.

I don't know why we put up with unions. Racketeering and extortion have been illegal for even longer than we've had unions. If they had thrown the very first union leaders in jail, we wouldn't have these kinds of problems now. They are no different than any other thug that comes into your business and threatens to destroy it if you don't pay up.

At least Wal-Mart has the right idea. They shut down a Canadian store that was trying to unionize.

[RedRock]

But supposedly, strike or no, at least Battlestar Galactica returns in March with new episodes, although perhaps the end of the series.

[AIGAD]

Speaking of Battlestar Galactica... when is season 3 coming out on disk? I haven't seen any of the shows since 2.5 because I don't get Sci-Fi...(sigh).

[I...Died...Again!!!]

Lam,

I am not looking for a debate here however I do not think that you have a firm grasp of where our workforce would be without unions. I will not defend all union actions, back in the day some unions were as bad as the mobsters that had people in fear for a long time. However I believe that unions have made working in this country better for many people that don't even realize it. Would you Iike to be working your ass off for barely minimum wage how long could you live like that. Lets not forget that the greedy studios are just as much to blame for the strike as is the writers union. It is a standard negotiation gone wrong. you do the same thing when you buy a car. They want to sell it for $xxx and you want to buy it for $xxx. You try to come to an agreeable purchase price, if they do not meet your expectations you shake hands and walk out. you don't just pay there price because they have the car. i do not want to project that I have all the answers but not all things are bad.

[Sgt_Blueberry]

I do not agree with all union actions either but I agree that they are necessary in some working environments...I grew up in a union family where my father was president of the local paper makers union. (Paper Mill) I know the negotiations that he endured provided better wages and benefits for not only him and his family but for all of the workers he represented.

[Pvt._Michaels]

Yeah, no new shows means more game time!
As for Unions, I will speak to the most glaring example of success.

All japanese auto makers with operations here in the States enjoy
union free business environments and always have.
The common dupe on the street equates GM, Ford, Chrysler lack of financial
results as a "product" issue.... Let me tell ya. It ain't!
GM now carries 3 pensioners with full medical bennies for every current full time employee.
Think that has a bottom line effect vs. japanese competition? The big 3 are living with their
bad labor decisions of decades ago.... Toyota will rule the world. Buy that Vette while ya can.
All of this is not lost on WalMart management.

The Pvt.

[a Silly Person]

There's a writer's strike going on???

I don't know if the figures at the bottom are true or not, but the story, in my opinion, pretty much sums up the stereotypical American way of thinking. (I couldn't find anything at Snopes on this.)



A Modern Parable:
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India ..
Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

[Lamron]

idiedagain said:

Lam,

I am not looking for a debate here however I do not think that you have a firm grasp of where our workforce would be without unions. I will not defend all union actions, back in the day some unions were as bad as the mobsters that had people in fear for a long time. However I believe that unions have made working in this country better for many people that don't even realize it. Would you Iike to be working your ass off for barely minimum wage how long could you live like that.

Of course the workers have benefited from unions (at least in the short term). But why should they benefit? They don't have the right to anything more than the compension package that THEY agreed to when they got hired. The owners of a business OWN the business. They are free to pay anything they want to offer. If the employee doesn't like it, he doesn't have to work there. If the owner's compensation offer really is too low, then he won't have any employees and will have to adjust or go out of business. The business exists to make the owner's money, not to provide paychecks and benefits to the community. In a theoretically capitalistic country, the business owner is free to prosper or fail depending on the wisdom of his choices.

Its simple supply and demand economics, but reverse of the way consumers usually think about it. The employers are the consumers. There are a certain number of suppliers (individuals) who have 40 hours of work to sell to the consumers. If the business owner is willing to pay more, he will be able to buy a larger quantity and higher quality of work. If there are lots of "supplier" and only a few "buyers", then the business can buy work for cheaper. And the reverse.

These factors all end up balancing into a semi-stable state, unless outside factors interfere. Like when someone forces the buyer to pay more than the market rate for his workers by threatening to put him out of business and making him loose ALL his investment. Then, not only are we stealing from the owner, we create a small socialist group of people who are NOT paid based on merit or value and have no motivation to be productive (because the consumer is not free to stop buying his work).

The usual union justification that "evil" corporations would pay everyone $1 per day without unions and we would all starve is silly. No one would work for that amount and they would have to pay what people thought was a reasonable salary or else they wouldn't have any employees.

How would you like it if something you need to survive suddenly cost three times as much? There's no shortage, doesn't cost more to make, and the quality keeps going down. Someone just decided they wanted more of your money, or they would ruin you. That's exactly what unions do to companies.

Its also justified by playing on people's class envy and pointing out the large amouts of money some companies are making. But very few companies actually have one person at the top who puts the yearly net into his personal savings account. A lot of it goes back out into paying stockholders (including pension and retirement plans that invest in stocks). Many of the same people complaining are the same people benefitting from it. And where does the rest of the money go? Into investing and buying other things built by other workers in other factories. All of that money has to keep moving around for the economy to grow.


So not only are unions bad for the economy, its WRONG to use force to steal from someone who has what you want.

[Pvt._Michaels]

Guys like Jimmy Hoffa & organized crime types have been attracted to Unions
since they were conceived. In this day an age Unions have long since outlived their
practical usefulness; owing greatly to the politically correct Nanny state we live in now.

I have seen the parable Silly quoted above many times....

It is cute, probably written by a smug, hipster, PR person from one of the Japanese car
companies. However, the operative portion is about how Ford is moving to areas where there is no UAW. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, etc can all build here with reckless abandon because they
DON'T allow unions. End of story. If Toyota were paying out what the big 3 were they'd be
a rounding error on cars sold in the USA stats. I'm no apologist for the Big 3, but
despite the financial burden of Union pensioners, med benefits, hourly wage contracts....
Buick still managed to beat out the Germans and the Japanese in the JD Power quality
competition & the Malibu just won North American car of the year. They felt compelled to give
"truck" of the year to Mazda...? ; an SUV built on a modified (Ford) car chassis that is also used to build the Ford Escape.....Buick came in second with their Enclave....

On second thought, I'd rather walk in the rain with a Chevy hubcap than ride in a
Japanese car.... How's that for taking a stand.... Screw the writers......I hope Hollywood busts the Union. I can get by watching 3 Stooges marathons. Those poor bastards never made more than $500 an episode....!

Pvt. Michaels

[Death's Shadow]

I myself (having been in a union) think they do not server much practical use anymore. From my perspective, all I saw from them was "you must join, if you want to work here." , and "you will pay dues out of your check every week." Where did my money go? Well I found out.. Some of it went for administrative costs of the union, quite a bit of it lined pockets, and worst of all in election years it was donated to the Democrats campaign funds. Screw that, I found other employment and quit that job.


Back in the day, I can see how unions helped improve standards. Today they serve only as a means to drive up consumer costs while a "FEW" rich cats collect the funds and become "special interest groups".

As to the writers strike. Well I am sure Hollywood could find MANY talented writers looking for a start, that would be glad to work for what the striking writers were making or less.

Just my opinion on the matter.

[vinsanity]

Unions are responsible for the mass exit of US companies overseas. I personally have friends up north who are UAW members. Some work building GM autos, some for Ford. ALL of them whine and moan while here vacationing (they all own vacation cabins here which is how we met) that they are so underpaid. They ALL make better than $50 per hour PLUS benefits. They ALL are receiving a minimum of 6 weeks paid leave PLUS holidays. And they ALL sicken me with their whining about lack of pay, benefits, and the like. I wish any one of them would have to spend a few years here earning the average salary in my county of less than $20K/year. While I seek full time work I am currently making just $6 per hour and glad to have it this time of year around here. Despite the pittance I am earning, I am glad we do not have unions here in my county to ruin what jobs there are.

It is no wonder that Toyota has spanked all of the US auto manufacturer's asses... they build an incredible product. Companies like Toyota are gaining ground while our own companies flounder - and it is primarily because unions have bled the companies dry.

I still buy American autos, primarily Dodge, though in my over 40 autos I have owned a little bit of everyone's product.

[Marauder(CDN)]

excuse me guys..but Toyota pays a higher wage then the big 3 does just to keep the union out. I work in an auto factory and my personal opinion is the union is there to protect the lazy. Toyota Cambridge and Woodstock make a higher wage than I do. So to say that a union drives up the cost is false. It takes less than 24 hrs for a car to go through our plant completely so wage is not a driving factor,and I have never heard of a unionized auto worker who makes more than $35..if they say it is higher..they lie.So..some of the facts presented are totally false here. We have management coming out our butts. For 45 people there is 4 Sups,2 assistant mangers..1 floating Sup..and a department manager...they are also putting on more Sups because of lay offs. We are reducing our hourly workforce and salary is not. The ratio is going to be almost 1 Superintendent for every 5 workers and 3 Assistant mangers if not 4...so how is our union driving up the cost when you have all that and they tier from $60000-$150000. I am not pro-union..nor am I pro company. But due to world trade agreements and "having" to help the less fortunate countries, there are autos in North America that were never around untill the late 80's. Companies are allowed to sell here and not build in N.A.But the big 3 are not permitted inside their borders for fear of hurting the economy. KIA is one example. The market has gotten tighter with more manufacturers in smaller car segmets..with the price of gas..and most of the sub-compacts dropped by GM,Ford and Dodge..they lost a huge segmet. Poor management and bad business decisions is what really hurt the NA auto industry.

also on a sidenote..Toyota has a very high rate of factory recalls..they just don't talk about it ..so their quality actually is worse in most cases

[vinsanity]

I have never seen their checks, but they all have very nice homes, a few luxury autos/suv's, and fine vacation cabins in the Smokies. They must be making some serious bank somewhere Plus they are all near retirement now & most have been their for their entire careers.

[Death's Shadow]

I am not all knowing about unions. I freely admit that. Are there different laws governing Canadian unions that we have here in the USA? Just wondering..

[RedRock]

aigad said:

Speaking of Battlestar Galactica... when is season 3 coming out on disk? I haven't seen any of the shows since 2.5 because I don't get Sci-Fi...(sigh).

Battlestar Galactica - Season Three ~ Battlestar Galactica (DVD - 2008)
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