My Apologies

[Sgt_Blueberry]

admin said:

redrock said:

I think 30 should be the voting age, personally, and I'm serious.

I think we should expect people to act like adults and be responsible enough to support themselves and their families at 15. There's no PHYSICAL reason why this shouldn't be true, people just live down to the low expectations of our society.

As far as being physically able at age 15 it's not unreasonable to expect that. It's being mentally ready to make responsible decisions and the drive to improve the quality of life that teens don't seem to get until much later.

[vinsanity]

I would not consider a voting age of 30. Because along with that would have to come a drinking age of 30. And perhaps a service enlistment minimum age of 30. If you can defend your nation you should be able to vote and buy a drink if you want.

I'm with Lam... it SHOULD be that people can support and care for themselves at 15 (or so.) I was raised that way. I moved out of the family home at 16 and I would die before moving back in with my parents. I always wanted my own place where I pay the bills and make the rules. I could have it no other way and face my grandparents. They taught me that no one in this world will give me anything unless I am a failure.

I say parents teach their kids that THEY will have the life they want if THEY work and pay for it. In my town it is very common to see 16 year old kids driving $30K-$50K cars. It is repulsive that a weak parent would provide such to a person who has no means of self support as the respect for where that money comes from is not in place BEFORE the reward.

My dad bought me my first car, but I made the payments, paid the insurance and the gas - repairs - etc. he said I would be paying for things most of my life & I should learn how early. At 39 I think his teaching me that things cost money and that work is required to have them is one of the best things he ever taught me.

[I...Died...Again!!!]

Why not? I enlisted at 16 with my fathers permission. Over summer break my Jr. And Sr. year in HS. Shipped off to basic 2 months before I was 18. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Do you think because the voting age is 18 we should lower the drinking age to 18 also.

[Urumii-Previously ThePresident]

I think that if you are old enough to be shipped overseas for months, and years at a time and kill people, and see your friends killed around you, you better damn well be able to get a drink when you get back from all that. The things those soldiers see, I can't even imagine. Me myself, I have never touched the stuff, but I think after going to Iraq or Afganistan I would want a nice hard drink.

[Death's Shadow]

I believe we should Ida.. why the distinction between 18 and 21 for drinking.. In my experience and observations. Young people will want to do adult things before they are supposed too. I know after I turned 21 it took alot of the fun out of drinking cause I didn't have to sneak to do it.

If they are supposed to be accountable as adults at 18 then they should be accountable and responsible with drinking too.


Vin.. I was raised much the same.. I had to buy and maintain my own first car too. I have done the same for my kids. Many times as young teens they would complain that it was not fair their friends got all the cool stuff just given too them.
Now they understand the values we instilled in them, and are hard working and responsible. As for their friends... some have gone to jail cause they didn't want to work for their possessions and tried stealing when no one would just give it to them. Some still live at home with mom and dad mooching at 25 years old.

and the thing that makes you proud is to hear them thank you for teaching them the right way, and not letting them go down that path. ;D

[vinsanity]

dreamingshadow said:

I believe we should Ida.. why the distinction between 18 and 21 for drinking.. In my experience and observations. Young people will want to do adult things before they are supposed too. I know after I turned 21 it took alot of the fun out of drinking cause I didn't have to sneak to do it.

If they are supposed to be accountable as adults at 18 then they should be accountable and responsible with drinking too.


Vin.. I was raised much the same.. I had to buy and maintain my own first car too. I have done the same for my kids. Many times as young teens they would complain that it was not fair their friends got all the cool stuff just given too them.
Now they understand the values we instilled in them, and are hard working and responsible. As for their friends... some have gone to jail cause they didn't want to work for their possessions and tried stealing when no one would just give it to them. Some still live at home with mom and dad mooching at 25 years old.

and the thing that makes you proud is to hear them thank you for teaching them the right way, and not letting them go down that path. ;D

EXACTLY!

[I...Died...Again!!!]

I respectfully have to disagree with the drinking age thing. Yes allot of people under 21 drink, hell I did. However I do not believe that some youngsters at that age are mature enough to do it responsibly. Hell for that matter I know some that are my age, mid 30s and are not mature enough. With the exception of our men and women in service, Pres has somewhat of a point in what he said about this. However, more importantly there are systems in place in the military that could help to limit the chances of abuse by its members. I regards to voting I think we should have a system in place that would allow younger children to have an election and provide them with results, allowing them to see the power that there one vote has. My daughters teacher did this in4th or 5th grade. I had a nonstop barrage of questions to answer from her, but she was interested, watching the news with me and hearing the debates (biases may be better) among the different media sources. But wishful thinking we cant even conduct a grownup election correctly. And lastly Yes values must come from home, we cant expect our children to have any if we do not instill them in to there mind!

[a Silly Person]

It's impossible to put an, all-agreed-upon, age on responsibility.

Since some of the parents today don't take the responsibility to teach their children responsibility, we are forced to try and guess our best at deciding and agreeing on an average age that shows promise of the beginnings of responsibility and intelligence.

[michiganmilitia]

admin said:

I think we should expect people to act like adults and be responsible enough to support themselves and their families at 15. There's no physical reason why this shouldn't be true, people just live down to the low expectations of our society.

I couldn't agree more. Why live down to expectations? Why settle for mediocrity?

[RedRock]

"Old enough to die for your country=old enough to vote" is a silly argument. You fight because it's your duty to do so, and the young are the best suited to the rigors of it and have little to no ties that would prevent it (no wife or kids, no mortgage, etc.). It's equivalent to my 14 yr. old having to do the dishes and cut the yard--she's certainly old enough to do a lot of things, but not yet mature enough to make appropriate decisions about them, and it's her duty to help carry her weight as part of my family and as one of my responsibilities, but I'm not going to let her go beyond what she should. Likewise with military duty and voting. I actually think all high school graduates should be drafted and perform 2 years of training and service in the military--there is a place and job for every one of them, even conscientious objectors and handicapped people--that would certainly be one way to staff a border guard, install responsibility and respect for authority, and teach gun safety and appreciation--but voting is a serious responsibility that should not be given just because children turn 18. And as for alcohol, since I'm in favor of banning its sale and consumption totally, no age is appropriate for it. Certainly, if someone thinks the right thing to do to handle the stress of military duty (or anything stressful, for that matter) is to drink, then I worry that person needs to rethink the military, too. And shall we talk about driving privileges and age? And I'm not talking about some kid needing to drive the tractor with the bales of hay out to the north 40 or the cows will starve. I didn't even get my driver's license until I was a junior in college, and I didn't buy my first car until I was in my 2nd year of residency after medical school! My wife had a car given to her by her dad that she brought into our marriage (a little Pinto, and she says she paid him back, but I really don't believe it) when I was still in medical school, and I learned to drive a stick that way and to do minor maintenance, but before that I rode my 10-speed everywhere and was in much better physical shape and managed my time better. Our kids today ride a couch, a computer chair, and a free vehicle, all the way to the obesity grave.

Voting: 30
Driving: 21
Alcohol: Never
Just being honest, from a person who daily sees the bad effects of immaturity in the face of alcohol, drugs, guns, and vehicles.

[a Silly Person]

Hmmm, speaking about drugs and alcohol. You don't suppose that those two vices could have caused any unplanned pregnancies, which in turn may have produced a continuation of irresponsibility by the new parents who felt trapped by parenthood?

Smart dude, Red, smart dude.

[Death's Shadow]

could always legalize all the ill legal drugs put the tax on it and pay off the national deficit. LMAO

[vinsanity]

redrock said:

"Old enough to die for your country=old enough to vote" is a silly argument. You fight because it's your duty to do so, and the young are the best suited to the rigors of it and have little to no ties that would prevent it (no wife or kids, no mortgage, etc.). It's equivalent to my 14 yr. old having to do the dishes and cut the yard--she's certainly old enough to do a lot of things, but not yet mature enough to make appropriate decisions about them, and it's her duty to help carry her weight as part of my family and as one of my responsibilities, but I'm not going to let her go beyond what she should. Likewise with military duty and voting. I actually think all high school graduates should be drafted and perform 2 years of training and service in the military--there is a place and job for every one of them, even conscientious objectors and handicapped people--that would certainly be one way to staff a border guard, install responsibility and respect for authority, and teach gun safety and appreciation--but voting is a serious responsibility that should not be given just because children turn 18. And as for alcohol, since I'm in favor of banning its sale and consumption totally, no age is appropriate for it. Certainly, if someone thinks the right thing to do to handle the stress of military duty (or anything stressful, for that matter) is to drink, then I worry that person needs to rethink the military, too. And shall we talk about driving privileges and age? And I'm not talking about some kid needing to drive the tractor with the bales of hay out to the north 40 or the cows will starve. I didn't even get my driver's license until I was a junior in college, and I didn't buy my first car until I was in my 2nd year of residency after medical school! My wife had a car given to her by her dad that she brought into our marriage (a little Pinto, and she says she paid him back, but I really don't believe it) when I was still in medical school, and I learned to drive a stick that way and to do minor maintenance, but before that I rode my 10-speed everywhere and was in much better physical shape and managed my time better. Our kids today ride a couch, a computer chair, and a free vehicle, all the way to the obesity grave.

Voting: 30
Driving: 21
Alcohol: Never
Just being honest, from a person who daily sees the bad effects of immaturity in the face of alcohol, drugs, guns, and vehicles.

Well damn, I did not know that asking for prohibition was an option as I would agree! I was going on the thought that alcohol will always be a factor. Now if we could eliminate it then YES we would be better off. But given that this is unlikely to occur I stand behind my original post. I do disagree with your comment that old enough to fight does not equal the right to vote. It is not a siilly argument at all. I certainly would not tell our young people to do the responsible thing and fight for their nation and follow it up with you can't vote as you are not mature enough.

[Urumii-Previously ThePresident]

Red you make a very good and understandable point/points. People will definately have different takes on things due to their own experiences. I do think that alcohol should be illegal, but I don't think that will make anything any better. When it was illegal in, the 20s I think, the mafia, and other "gangsters" made it illegally, and it caused many many problems. Those problems went away when it was legalized again. I have the same viewpoint on marijuana and cocaine. It is causing too many problems, and I see it everyday being just 2 blocks away from the biggest drug ring in Minnesota. Marijuana and cocaine are the two most widely sold drugs in the world, and Meth is quickly catching up and if they were legalized I think it would decrease gang activity and agravated crimes greatly. Heroin, PCP, LSD and such should stay illegal, because they aren't as widely sold and wouldn't cause too much of a problem if they stayed illegal.

I think we need to pick a side to be on, either make things legal, or make everything illegal. We can't chose to keep cigs and alcohol legal because we make too much money off of them, but keep other drugs illegal because they are bad for you.


As to vinnys points, I am learning them right now. My parents did give me a car to use, and they did pay for insurance. But they did that to get me started on a path to get a job. And once I got a job, they made me pay my own insurance and make payments on the car myself. I got a lot of things from my parents without paying them with money, but I have to work very hard to make up for the money they spend. I got a new computer about a year ago. The only reason I got that was because for half of the school year, I had to get nothing but A's. I worked my a$$ off for those 2 quarters, and after doing that for so long, it was nothing to maintain a B average the rest of the year. They taught me that work is important in a little different way, but it got the same point across. And I think either way is a good way to teach our kids.

[beer]

You have to look at more than just the bad points.