My Apologies

[Death's Shadow]

I like and agree with what ya had to say in your edit MM.. Not many your age have it straight. ;D

[RedRock]

vinsanity said:

You are wrong Even IF I agreed with your arguments, which I don't... your own words fail you. You speak of how America's youth are so pooly informed. Well, the truth is they are really no less informed than ANY age group in America. And if youth are able to make acceptable soliders, they must then also be mature, dedicated, or any other positive trait necessary to be one. So which is it... are they idiots or are they great soldiiers becasue frankly they cannot be both?

It's really very simple. Here, I'll type it slowly for you.

Certain traits, skills, training, and knowledge bases are needed for any individual task, job, career, or profession. Soldiers and diesel mechanics and CPA's and neurosurgeons are all different in those regards, and we all understand that without my having to explain it. Well, it's the same with soldiers and voters, and fry cooks and voters, and computer techs and voters, etc. It's an entirely different skill set, to use the jargon. There is no contradiction in my statement that our youth are fine soldiers but lousy voters. Which they are.

Face it: our youth and, I'll grant you, too many of their parents and grandparents, are the victims of 40+ years of democrat-controlled public education, and it shows in them and in our declining society! It takes work to be an informed and involved voter (the ONLY kind of voter there should be), but without the very basis upon which to work, that is, an effective education and a reason to be educated (so you can stand on your own two feet), our youth graduating high school by and large do not understand anything beyond pop culture. Liberal politics and policies are in effect creating a new class of slaves who can't think or provide for themselves.

I suggest you ask about 30 random teens the questions I posed previously, and see for yourself. Or, just listen to Sean Hannity occasionally--he frequently does this to several random young people on the streets of NYC, and it is pathetic, truly pathetic, how ignorant the youth are. Oh, well, perhaps not truly random, because they have to agree to go on the air with their answers or they don't get asked the questions, so it's a subset of the randomly encountered NYC teens, but on the other hand, that's an answer in itself about the teens, because it's usually wiser to look stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Urumii-Previously ThePresident]

redrock said:

mj..... and it is a proven "GATEWAY" drug--people who try mj will try other, harder drugs because of their relatively innocuous experiences with mj. Legalizing it would increase the problems with cocaine, ecstacy, etc.

I would have to disagree. I have many many friends who smoke (I do not) and thats all they do. And all of their friends are the same way. I have a lot of hands-on experience with drugs because everyone in my area does them (as I said, I do not). And I have not seen anything to suggest it is a gateway drug. People who are gonna get into heroin, and cocaine and all that, are gonna get into it anyways. No matter what drug they try first. In my experience anyways.

Red, I know you have experience in the medical field, an autopsy dude is what comes to mind. So we will of course see different things, I'm sure you don't have a bunch of friends who smoke mj.

[Sgt_Blueberry]

blueberry said:

admin said:

I think we should expect people to act like adults and be responsible enough to support themselves and their families at 15. There's no PHYSICAL reason why this shouldn't be true, people just live down to the low expectations of our society.

As far as being physically able at age 15 it's not unreasonable to expect that. It's being MENTALLY ready to make responsible decisions and the drive to improve the quality of life that teens don't seem to get until much later.

[vinsanity]

"It's really very simple. Here, I'll type it slowly for you."

Now you are just being rude... And as to asking 30 random teens questions on most anything... you could easily do the same for adults with the exact same level of results. This is further evidence that your comments are wrong in regard to voting age.

[RedRock]

You are (still) ignoring the substance of my posts, though. 18 is too young and I have adequately demonstrated it.

I'm not going to get into "voter suitability testing" for older Americans, as that's a deflection of the issue under discussion (although that TOO is really needed).

[Death's Shadow]

LOL here ya go Red... thought todays toon was comically fitting to your list of questions. ;D

Its almost as though the artist is reading our forums.

[RedRock]

Yeah, DS, I saw that, and I thought the same. Thanks for "sharing"!

[vinsanity]

redrock said:

You are (still) ignoring the substance of my posts, though. 18 is too young and I have adequately demonstrated it.

I'm not going to get into "voter suitability testing" for older Americans, as that's a deflection of the issue under discussion (although that TOO is really needed).

I am ingoring nothing... I simply disagree with your assertions.

[RedRock]

Get a dictionairy. You confused rude with insulting, and now assertions with reasoning.
And the rope-a-dope act is getting tiring.

[vinsanity]

redrock said:

Get a dictionairy. You confused rude with insulting, and now assertions with reasoning.
And the rope-a-dope act is getting tiring.

D I C T I O N A R Y... and I am not confused, I just believe differently than you. And there is no act.

[Lamron]

Vinsanity, stay on track, you were doing so good! But you've let RedRock provoke you into stepping out of the "Arena Of Ideas" and you're just going to end up frustrated because you still believe your position is correct but are unable to persuasively articulate it. You need to logically challenge the premise to be successful. Since you ARE right about adulthood/voting age equaling the military age, allow me to take up the banner for a moment....


=====================================================

It is a matter of responsibility and authority. The two always have to go together. Those with authority are responsible for what they do with it and for those under them. Those who have no authority to manage their own actions or those of others cannot be held responsible for them either. This is a solid principle based on Biblical truth, logical reasoning and is the essence of law in civilized societies.

In our society we have chosen 18 years old as the point you become legally responsible for your own actions and have the right/authority to make your own decisions. The arbitrary number is arguable, but this is what we've chosen in this country. What is important here is that the responsibility and authority come as one.

redrock said:

It's equivalent to my 14 yr. old having to do the dishes and cut the yard--she's certainly old enough to do a lot of things, but not yet mature enough to make appropriate decisions about them, and it's her duty to help carry her weight as part of my family and as one of my responsibilities, but I'm not going to let her go beyond what she should.

The parallel doesn't hold. Those chores are not real responsibilities and there aren't real consequences. Failing to do them will not result in her becoming homeless, going to jail, or getting killed. The only real result of failing to complete the tasks are that she'll have trouble finding a clean dish. You supply the simulated consequences in the form of punishments for non-compliance with your directives. The duty/responsibility for her well-being still reside with you, as does the authority over her actions. You do this to teach character and instill values in your children by illustrating on a small scale what adult life is really like, but they still have the safety net of your authority/responsibility.

If we have decided that someone is old enough to have the responsibility/duty to serve his country, then they must also have the authority to have a say in the direction of their lives and in their country's future. That authority is expressed in our voting. There are real consequences for the decisions a country makes, so those upon whom the consequences fall must have the ability to effect them.

redrock said:

No, teens and young 20's just don't have the education, knowledge, life experience, or wisdom to be voting, and they DO NOT DESERVE IT merely for the reason of having survived 18 years of life.

We don't have to EARN any of our rights as Americans. They are ours simply because we are citizens of this country. Surviving until 18 has nothing to do with it. Its about reaching the point where you have taken on the responsibilities of being an adult, and can now take an active role in the direction of your society. Of course many are going to make bad decisions, and society as a whole will suffer the consequences for them. The country deserves to get what the representative majority wants. If they want something bad for them, then we deserve what's coming. If they make wiser choices, we get a better country and prosperity.

If older adults think that 18,19,20 year olds are too dumb, uninformed, and immature to take part in the decision making process, then BE BETTER PARENTS AND TEACH THEM while they still are your responsibility.


The truth is that many people of all ages really are uninformed morons. But we have a representative government, and those uninformed morons are your peers. Saying that only certain "qualified" individuals should be allowed to vote IS an attractive idea; especially since I believe that the more educated, intelligent, and mature a person is, the more like me they will be. ;D

However, this is contrary to the principles our country was founded on. We believe that all men were created equal. We're obviously not equal in education, intelligence, wisdom, wealth, popularity, maturity, talents etc. So what does this mean? It means that regardless of all other qualifications or prerequisites, all who share in the responsibility for the results have an equal authority in shaping the destiny of a Free Society.

Freedom is nothing more or less than the authority to make your own choices, and the acceptance of the consequences of those decisions.

I submit that if we ever decide that a certain segment of this population is "adult enough" to fight/kill/die for his country (responsibility), but at the same time is not "adult enough" to have a vote (authority), then we
have lost some of what makes us free.

[RedRock]

vinsanity said:

redrock said:

Get a dictionairy. You confused rude with insulting, and now assertions with reasoning.
And the rope-a-dope act is getting tiring.

D I C T I O N A R Y... and I am not confused, I just believe differently than you. And there is no act.

The "dictionairy" misspelling was a gambit, as was the usage of "tiring," to see if I'd finally get an answer of substance (as Lamron did) or just a continuation of the rope-a-dope--ducking and dodging while putting on a cocky face but responding only with sound-bites. Well, I got my answer, but that's fine, because the tiring has now become tiresome.

[Death's Shadow]

Well spoken Lam. Those that would lay down their lives for my freedom deserve to vote and I might add drink too if they want too.

Personally I have thought that any war time Vet that has received combat pay from the Govt. should now be income tax exempt for life. Not only would this be a fitting reward for those that risk their lives for us, but can you imagine the enlistment numbers. Just a idea.

[beer]

I dont know if the pertains to anything said but I'm gonna say it.
The only thing that angered me when I got out of the Navy were the people my age at home griping about the war.While they sat on their butts at home w/ the hippies, I was over there doing something about it.They want to say things like Bush is wrong(I agree) and we shoulda done this or I dont like that....that is ok and they are free to say that, but I think its chickensh*t.When I joined it was for a patriotic reason...for my home,for the people here and for freedom .I guess I just dont understand why every man and woman of age in America wasnt at the local recruiting office trying to join and defend freedom.Yes we have the right to decide,and I agree w/ that,but I also think think that if you dont have the b*lls to back up your talk then STFU.
Again sorry if this is out of line.