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Post by Urumii-Previously ThePresident on May 1, 2008 20:25:25 GMT -5
These people who push this envirowacko stuff are the most dangerous people on the planet. There is no limit to the destruction they will cause with their sick agenda. I hope some of these people have the good graces to be suicidally ashamed when they realize that they are forcing us to clear-cut old-growth forests around the world so we can grow their stupid ethanol. I am in the category with the "envirowacko" people. I am pushing for people to take action on this issue (or non-issue). Either way I am pushing it. Just because I don't have as much influence as a scientist, does not mean I want the same things they do. Science is black and white. I was not referring to the science. I was referring to Red and Lamron making comments to try and convince me to choose a side by over-exaggerated comments. Like, if you believe in GW, you should be suicidally ashamed. That is an attempt to make me change to his side by making such a black and white comment.
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Post by vinsanity on May 1, 2008 21:30:02 GMT -5
I think you will find in life that if some one finds out you will get upset if things you dont like are said, they will do it every time to throw you off your game. Whether it is in a game, in business, or in a discussion on a forum board. LOL anyone with a valid perspective will debate their side with facts, not try to "thow you off your game." That type of tactic is never allowed in a civil debate setting.
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Death's Shadow
LPmember
I have become Death. The destroyer of worlds.
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Post by Death's Shadow on May 1, 2008 23:45:40 GMT -5
Prez if you choose to include yourself in that group that is your business, but until Lam tells me other wise I am sure he did not mean the common people on the street. You are choosing to be offended, thus avoiding the facts.
Vin in a perfect world I would agree with you. However in real life I stand by my statement. People will look for any advantage they can get, and when it is found they will exploit it.
Even in the democratic debates a month or so ago.. Good ole' Hill griped that she always got the hard questions while Obom got the easy ones. Then asked if he would like another pillow to make him comphy. This was on national t.v. in a sanctioned and timed debate. So yea it does happen in civil debates.
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Post by vinsanity on May 1, 2008 23:52:57 GMT -5
What we are seeing in the Prez debates is not necessarily civil. I was referring to actual debates where there are rules and time limits. I always loved debates in school as the point was not to change any opinions but to best defend your position. Some of my favorites were ones in which I had to defend a position that I personally disagreed with.
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Death's Shadow
LPmember
I have become Death. The destroyer of worlds.
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Post by Death's Shadow on May 1, 2008 23:57:51 GMT -5
I know what you meant.. that is why I gave you the Hillary and Oboma debate as an example.. That had rules and time limits.
What Lam posted was a general statement of his beliefs no where in it did I see him say he wished for the prez to kill himself.
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Post by Garp {eng} on May 2, 2008 4:01:09 GMT -5
There was once a solid fact opnion that the earth was flat and to say other wise would invite attack!! well its round. Warming does not mean WARM areas it means shifting weather patons making some areas COLDER.
I think that politics in the usa are to agressive for us English so I'll leave now.
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Lamron
Benevolent Dictator
Posts: 5,214
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Post by Lamron on May 2, 2008 5:54:55 GMT -5
I hope some of these people have the good graces to be suicidally ashamed You think I should commit suicide? This is exactly what I, and vinny are talking about. While you all have the right to say these things. It is not helping anything. And is in my opinion WRONG to say. Wooh! Stop right there. Don't quote HALF my sentence and take something out of it I never said. There wasn't even a comma where you cut it off! This is what I said: I'm talking about all the ecological damage CAUSED by environmentalists. Like the forest clear-cutting to make room for corn (ethanol) growth. Or the damage to the land done by not rotating crops. Or like when animal rights people STARVE out a herd of animals by preventing hunting. Or the thousands of animals PETA "saves" from shelters, only to quietly kill them when they realize they don't have anywhere to put them. The people who should be ashamed of their stupidity are the ones that run out and make knee-jerk emotional decisions on laws or policies while having no understanding of the consequences. How are they going to feel when they realize that THEY have caused the damage that they were supposed to be so against? People want to be judged on their intentions, but its results that count. I don't care how good someone's intentions are to "save the planet" if the results are economic ruin or death for much of the world's population. Especially when there may have been no threat to begin with and when the consequences were so easily foreseeable. Before you could even consider enforcing injurious changes on people, you'd have to absolutely PROVE these five things: 1) Global warming, climate change, etc. is actually happening. 2) Global warming, climate change, etc. is a bad thing. 3) It is caused by man's activities. 4) Changing man's activities could reverse the effects 5) The expense of the changes is worth the benefit. ONLY after these facts are established, could there be any discussion of how best to proceed with policy changes. And we don't even have number ONE done yet. But they ("true believers" and those who are making money off it) want to jump right to the end and skip all the other steps and start tearing down civilization. THAT is what we object to.
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Lamron
Benevolent Dictator
Posts: 5,214
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Post by Lamron on May 2, 2008 6:02:04 GMT -5
There was once a solid fact opnion that the earth was flat and to say other wise would invite attack!! well its round. Good example. The CONSENSUS was wrong and cost many lives and much time (leading to cargo spoiling and loss) as ships hugged the dangerous shoreline to get to anywhere because they where afraid to get out of sight of land and risk falling off the edge. The Dutch ignored the consensus and went out and looked for themselves. Their ships taking the direct, open-sea routes where much safer and faster, eventually making them the leading and richest sea-going traders of the world.
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Lamron
Benevolent Dictator
Posts: 5,214
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Post by Lamron on May 2, 2008 6:12:17 GMT -5
That's too bad about Beer leaving. I thought that RedRock's exact copying of the same words with different groups substituted made it clear he was trying to illustrate the folly of those generalizations. Especially since those topics where completely outside the subject we're talking about. I don't see how anyone could read that and think that believed any of those things.
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Post by vinsanity on May 2, 2008 8:21:24 GMT -5
Beer contacted me via xfire late yesterday. He says he still plans on playing in the server but wants no part of the forums.
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Post by Urumii-Previously ThePresident on May 2, 2008 9:54:21 GMT -5
Lamron, I am sorry for what I have said about that particular part of your post. I misunderstood you, and you are completely correct about that. I did not purposely cut your post to make me look better, it was a misunderstanding on my part.
I cannot say I agree with the length you went to prove your point, but it is a valid one. I am still disappointed with the things Red has said, not just to beer, but to vinny and I, and his apparent enjoyment of it all.
Red made a valid point with the racial word replacement, but I don't think what he said to beer was civil. And what was said to vinny was not civil. Lamron, you have defended yourself well, and explained the reason why you said what you said, and I understand. But I fail to see where Red was justified in saying the things he did.
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Post by I...Died...Again!!! on May 2, 2008 19:14:02 GMT -5
Let me throw this wrench in this. Every four years we have a leap year to correct for the errors in the whatever the hell calendar we use. Told you I ain't bright. I just don't get the fact that the cooler weather doesn't start until late Oct.- mid Nov. up home from what I hear, from my mother. Here in GA it doesn't get cool until late Nov. And now there is snow at the end of April? I think we have been slowly drifting off course with the true seasons and that is where some I say again SOME, of the wacky weather we are seeing is from this. Do oh I maid a point...lol Oh and pollution is bad...lol
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Death's Shadow
LPmember
I have become Death. The destroyer of worlds.
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Post by Death's Shadow on May 2, 2008 21:05:01 GMT -5
We have leap year every 4 years because it takes 364.75(neatly rounded) days to make a complete orbit around the sun. so the extra day in Feb is for the 1/4 x 4 to make up that difference.
One other fun fact.
Our orbit around the sun is not in a perfect circle. It is slightly elliptical. Placing us closest to the sun in Mid January, and furthest in July.
The uneven heating of our land and air is causes the winds to blow, storms, and weather patterns. All things in nature are one big equation trying to equal itself out. When equal is known as homeostatic, or homeostasis. So as the earth moves closer and further from the sun that cycles on a 11year cycle of greater to lower activity, so we also can observer increase and decrease in global temps, and weather patterns.
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Post by Garp {eng} on May 3, 2008 2:23:41 GMT -5
OH I see so the fact that we polute our seas with oil spills (fact) polute our air with car,factory,household.power generated gases (fact) fill the earth with plastics, unbio rubbish amongst others (fact) deforest the eaths lungs, clear vast areas of foliage (fact) and so on and so on has NO EFFECT on the planet?? its a natural cycle of planet life??
Lets put the phrase "Global warming" or "climate change" as a favorite phrase of the moment to one side and look around us at whats happning for a FACT. is the weather changing? ok considee that there may not be hard evidence for that YET, but pollution that will change the planet is FACT and IS happning and WE MUST take that in hand and change our habits of mass comsumption, this being realing on OUIL for fuel, there is other renewable methods but oil is the doller blind fold that suffercates any advance in other areas, if monies is all we care about then we are srewed no matter what our political veiws or ethnic background or counrty.
Have a nice day.
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Lamron
Benevolent Dictator
Posts: 5,214
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Post by Lamron on May 3, 2008 2:43:33 GMT -5
The severe polution you describe is very localized. And there are obvious consequences for it at the local level, but there are very few places like you describe. I'm sure that is little comfort for those who live near it, but the effects are not global.
And most of those polution problems have been solved by the developed countries that will be most hurt by new regulations. Here in Indianapolis, IN we burn coal for electricity. The electric plant is right here in the city and the air it puts out is CLEANER than the air it sucks in. Most plastics get recycled, and what difference does it make if it doesn't biodegrade? The oil it used to be before we made something useful out of it wasn't biodegradable either.
No civilized country is cutting down trees for wood without replanting new ones. Old trees convert very little CO2 to O2. Young trees are their most effient in the first 20 years. It doesn't get more "renewable" and "air friendly" than that.
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